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Believers and skeptics, welcome!
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gingerpale



Joined: 23 Jan 2006
Posts: 1324

PostPosted: Sun Aug 13, 2006 12:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It seems that progress towards peace is being made..? (In the Middle East, not between Sarape and smokin' women!)
Your attitude is remarkable, Simona!


Last edited by gingerpale on Thu Aug 31, 2006 4:21 pm; edited 1 time in total
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simona



Joined: 11 Mar 2005
Posts: 696
Location: israel

PostPosted: Sun Aug 13, 2006 10:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thank you GP.
I don't expect much of the ceasefire, nobody does.
Peace with Lebanon will be effective only when Lebanon will be a sovereign country . I hope for them ( and for us) that it will be rather sooner than later.

No more war.
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madameshawshank



Joined: 30 Sep 2004
Posts: 1654
Location: Penrith (where jacarandas remind me of change), New South Wales, Australia

PostPosted: Sun Aug 13, 2006 1:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

sweetbabyjames...does not a death process begin as soon as a life begins..perhaps all one and the same of the mosaic...
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Griffin



Joined: 09 Jun 2006
Posts: 932
Location: England

PostPosted: Sun Aug 13, 2006 3:45 pm    Post subject: Believers and skeptics, welcome! Reply with quote

queenla,

Quote:
'believers' whats wrong with them. why does believing/faith fill people with fear. It is a fact that there are unexplained things that happen.


I'm assuming you mean un-believers who appear afraid of believing/faith (possibly wrongly, I confuse easily). I am an atheist, unafraid of belief/faith and I would agree with you up to a point. I also agree with you that others beliefs should be respected (so long as they don't use their beliefs to harm others) and their right to believe respected also. But I don't think that respect means that one should not question those beliefs. That things happen which are unexplained now does not necessarily mean a supernatural cause/effect. It may mean that we don't know the reasons for it happening now.

Quote:
I do think theism can be used as an excuse to try to control people, but fundamentally one should be open minded. existentialists are believers- in nothing. That should be equally as valid as believing in something.


Yes one should be open-minded, but questioning also. Existentialists, as I understand it, believe that we make our own 'fate' as opposed to Determinists who believe that our fates are determined for us by a deity or fate/destiny. Existentialists don't believe in nothing, that's nihilists who believe that everything is pointless. Possibly they have never had good chocolate. Then they become choco-nihilists... or choco-existentialists... or something.

As an atheist I believe in ethics and compassion, but that it is a human responsibility as opposed to a commandment given by a deity. I also make a distinction between ethics and morals. For me morals are how you think others should live their lives. Ethics are how you think you should live your own life. Which is why I believe in ethics, not morals.

Quote:
Sweetbabyjames said : It's been said the best kind of person is a good atheist. He has chosen to be good because he identifies his own cause with that of all mankind. In other words, to be truly good, we have to decide to be good without coercion.


Like this, in fact. As the Christian poet John Donne wrote, "No man is an island entire of itself..."

I did like the information for a programme listing on telly tho'. Apparently a man who researches painless ways for the terminally ill to kill themselves was receiving death threats from anti-euthanasia groups!!! It didn't say whether that was one of his methods...! Confused

Simona,

Do take care of yourself. It's a stupid situation not being helped. Like you I don't believe in war either. After over two thousand years of human existence, I think we humans ought to know better. Love to ya, our kid.
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Sarape



Joined: 15 Dec 2004
Posts: 583
Location: Anniston Alabama USA

PostPosted: Sun Aug 13, 2006 9:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Was it in Notes from the Underground, where Dostoyevsky describes a supernatural entity anouncing from the "heaven" that I am the voice of God? And the people not knowing whom now to believe create more chaos amongst themselves?
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madameshawshank



Joined: 30 Sep 2004
Posts: 1654
Location: Penrith (where jacarandas remind me of change), New South Wales, Australia

PostPosted: Mon Aug 14, 2006 12:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

http://www.smh.com.au/news/world/churches-in-push-to-hide-ancestors/2006/08/13/1155407675124.html

Confused
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queenla



Joined: 27 Oct 2005
Posts: 105
Location: Wycheproof, Australia

PostPosted: Mon Aug 14, 2006 12:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Griffin,
so true: yes i did need to clarify that first sentence- the concept of faith can fill non-believers, or people who are unsure of their beliefs, with fear...
And unexplained things do not neceesarily refer to supernatural solutions....
what i mean by saying existentialists believing in nothing is that they believe in no afterlife.
and I agree with you about questioning, it is vital.....
to my mind businesses/organisations have ethics, people have morals- essentially they are the same thing- a behavioural code.

Simona-
I would be really interested in talking to you about 'the war' and hearing your experinces as they happen- would you consider starting a new thread? Or do you have a blog?
You seem like such a calm voice of reason with a unique attitude to the situation, the continuing history, you are living through.
you write:
Peace with Lebanon will be effective only when Lebanon will be a sovereign country-
I am interested in what you mean by this- a sovereign country with what borders? Are you alone in you thinking?
I would understand if you did not wish to elaborate.

All the best to all.
g
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simona



Joined: 11 Mar 2005
Posts: 696
Location: israel

PostPosted: Mon Aug 14, 2006 1:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Griffin, Queenla, thank you for your thoughts.
As I've posted in the thread "Rayney's Ranting", ( please read it if you have missed it) the issue of the ME war is , in my humble opinion, not a "nice" topic, and C& Z is only about nice and tasty things. War and it's real reasons are not nice, and though I am anti-war, I am definitely not a pacifist. I believe one has the right, - no , the duty- to defend itself if threatened every day for years, by destructions etc. There is no other country in the world which is threatened "open court" , all over the written and electronic media, with destruction, and that by head of states, terrorist leaders, which otherwised dine at the Elisee.
Getting into the heart of the problems, as hinted by Zoe and by myself in the above mentioned forum, might be explosive. Emails are something else of course, ande on emails I'm ready to answer any question and to write my opinions, though I've experienced vicious , hateful and queer emails, from people who otherwiswe sounded sane enough on the forums.
Maybe one point : Israel was not at war with Lebanon. Not one Lebanese soldier fought in this war, not one Lebanese soldier died in this war. The war was against the Hizbollah, a terrorist group which terrorises Lebanon and Israel for years, an affiliate of Iran and El qaida. The Hisbollah is installed in the villages and towns of Lebanon, where from it sends missiles to Israel for years.
Only now, with the ceasefire agreement, the Lebanese army promises to take back their country and defend Lebanon's southern borders, which were for the last 20 years Hisbollah country. If that will happen, I can assure you there will be no more fighting on Lebanon's land. But I doubt that Hisbollah will accept to disarm and let the Lebanese army do the job.
Lebanon and Israel have recognized international borders, consolidated in 2000 after Israel left South Lebanon. Unfortunately during these 6 last year, the lebanese army had no hold on this part of their country and Hisbollah was left to build an arsenal of missiles and trained terrorists. Actually, they never ever hided their intentions to destroy " the jewish-zionist" entity. That's me. .
This last month, 4000 missiles bombed the north of Israel, and more than a 1.000.000 people left their homes. But it seems we are less photogenic. There are many casualties, and the only reasons that there are not more casualties is because most of the houses have shelters.
I'm sure whoever wants to know what this war or any other war in the ME ( my region) is about ,can google and reach sources of information.
Queenla, you can feel free to email me, and I'll be pleased to answer any questions, to provide any information I can.

No more war. I hope the ceasefire wil bring to a fire ceasing. I'm not sure. But I'm a pessimist , a pragmatist.
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Sarape



Joined: 15 Dec 2004
Posts: 583
Location: Anniston Alabama USA

PostPosted: Tue Aug 15, 2006 12:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've read just about everything in The Wall-Street Journal on this war between Hezbollah and Israel.

They conclude that both Israel and the U.S. are the losers in that Israel failed to defeat the terrorists -- basically it has temporarily ended in a draw. The Hezbollah terrorists surprised Israel by being so quickly able to adapt and innovate. The is the first time Israel has "lost" a war.

Most critics think this is a temporary halt in fighting and that Hezbollah will gain strength, Lebanon will not be able to control the south, Iran and Syria are the winners -- along with the leader of the Hezbollah (can't remember his name) who's currently the darling of the Islamofacists.

Conclusion: Israel acted too slow; they thought air-bombing would be enough; they should have sent in heavy arms on the ground. US and Israel are losers; Syria and Iran are winners.

Very sad for people who love peace.
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queenla



Joined: 27 Oct 2005
Posts: 105
Location: Wycheproof, Australia

PostPosted: Tue Aug 15, 2006 1:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

thnks Simona, I have now read Rainey ranting and see that is a conversation that has been had.
Here's my take:
I am not muslim, I am not jewish, I am not christian. I live in Australia.
I agree that war is a part of world history but i not agree that because of that it is a part of its future. War must not be something that we take as a matter of 'human nature'. ( as I write this my three year old is pouring(water) tea on to a 'cup' of flat cardboard- and then watching it drip onto the floor. Oh now she is cleaning it up...
I am not trying to make light of what I am saying.
....Sarape says that America and Isreal were 'clever' enough to make their high tech weapons. Do you also think that Bin Laden was 'clever' to think of Sept 11? War is destruction and as has been proven having more fighting power does not lead to peace. World history is to be learned from and is not the lesson apparent? Simona writes it- no more war- but she does not believe it. She seems very supportive of it. And her reason is that she says they want to kill her. Well it sounds like a fair reason to fight but why do they want to kill? And does just killing in return resolve anything?
It is an easy question but why live in war zone?
I want to make it clear that I am not on any side. Reading 'reiney ranting' I agree that it is disappointing if we can not discuss this war openly. To me diplomacy is the only solution. We have to talk about it and I don't know about anyone else but I feel a little scared even trying to do so. I feel if I question Isreal that I will be 'shot' down and called an anti-semite, but I can't help but wonder why Isreal is not a bit more sympathetic to the people who were removed so they could have Isreal?
Now I feel like a might be putting kero on the fire, but I really do not want to be judged like this. I do feel for the Jewish plight too. And I wonder why the solution can't be found from talking, compromising and giving- on both sides. It seems that an internet forum is the perrfect place for all kinds of people to contribute their perspectives on an important world problem.
I thank Simona for her willingness, but I still don't really know what you think the solution is- or what the problem is.
I think there should be a world debate, more talking about it, like we've been saying in this thread, questioning, question things and find out as much as you can before you form your view. I have done a fair amount of reading- not just the papers- and I am interested in more.
If we all talked more about it, not fought, then maybe that would 'desensitise' the emotion and lead to a diplomatic solution. Otherwise, really, where else can it go but total self destruction on both parts. I think it is that serious.
I have not lost my passion for food and cooking. I know there are many other forum topics here and I can and do go to them whenever I want.
diplomacy.
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Griffin



Joined: 09 Jun 2006
Posts: 932
Location: England

PostPosted: Tue Aug 15, 2006 7:01 pm    Post subject: Believers and skeptics, welcome! Reply with quote

Queenla

Quote:
to my mind businesses/organisations have ethics, people have morals- essentially they are the same thing- a behavioural code.


I don't think in a sense there's a difference between organisations or individuals in this context. Both need to be ethical and compassionate to truly thrive. As you say both ethics and morals are a behavioural code. But I wouldn't say they were the same thing. One is pointing its finger at others instead of cleaning up its own house. The other is entirely about cleaning up ones own house, as it were.

For me the Israel/Hezbullah issue is annoying. That both are being led by apparently grown up people who actually seem to think that violence will solve the problem would be laughable if so many caught in the middle weren't suffering. I do think that the underlying problem is the cynical interference in the matter by others. Britain and France to start with, Syria and Iran and America also.

If those countries would behave more ethically and compassionately instead of plugging their own agendas at the expense of those suffering in the region more progress might be made. As usual, pragmatism and expediency have succeeded in making life a misery for too many people in the region.

An article in today's Guardian newspaper in the UK suggests that Israel's problem is that the generals are really in charge and perpetuate a state of fear and war so that they can continue in power. I merely report it, I don't make claims for it, but it wouldn't surprise me. Aside from politicians I don't trust the military - anywhere. Apologies if this offends anyone, it's merely my opinion.
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simona



Joined: 11 Mar 2005
Posts: 696
Location: israel

PostPosted: Tue Aug 15, 2006 11:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Grifffin, you don't offend, because you have no intention to offend. I know better than try to argue on open forums. This forum is not the right place, in my opinion, to discuss this subject, therefore, I won't participate.
If one cannot distinguish between a soveriegn state and a recognized terrorist group( led by Iran), if one thinks that Hizbollah lacks/needs compassion from other countries, if one thinks that the West is wrong and poor Hisbollah is right,if one thinks that being threatened daily , open court and in the media by terrorist organizations and soverign countries like Iran is merely a form of paranoia perpetuated by generals ( It's maybe the first time in Israel's history that both the Prime Minister and the Defence Minister are not military persons), then, I really prefer to talk Tomatoes.
I don't need the Guardian to explain to me who is who. I live here. I open the TV, I listen carefully to Ben Laden, Nassralla ( Hizbollah leader) and Iran's president. So can everybody around the world.
And no, Queenla, I have no solutions. Sorry. Maybe one should ask Hisbollah ( and Syria, and Iran) if they have a solution; Question what is their agenda, as well as Iran's. What are their ethics, morals and behavioural codes. Actually,they are quite frank about it and have told it many times, over and over again, but who listens. There is not an Israel/Hisbollah issue, there is a Hisbolla/ Al queida / world terrorist organizations issue against you , and me , and all of us.

I really think that I must stick to the food topics.

Good night , sweet dreams.

Oh, yes, and no more war.
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Sarape



Joined: 15 Dec 2004
Posts: 583
Location: Anniston Alabama USA

PostPosted: Wed Aug 16, 2006 12:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Simona, please don't give up here or anywhere on your passion to support a stable society where your people can live in peace. I support you and I think that anyone who's followed the history of the Jews through to the present with an open mind would also agree.

Hezbollah puts their terrorist fighters located near civilian populations, they are supported by Islamofacsists in Iran, Syria, and throughout the Middle East. Those people want to kill Westerners because they don't share their religious beliefs. This is their stated agenda. Who could not side with Israel on this issue?

I went to school and studied under many Jewish professors and I really learned to respect their hard work and attention to scholaship and their passion for culture -- compared to most American engineers who had no understanding for culture or world history.

Even today both Hezbollah and Israel are talking about staying militarily active since they don't believe this cease fire is permanent. Lebanon's army will likely not be effective.
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gisele



Joined: 28 Mar 2006
Posts: 154
Location: North of Auckland, New Zealand

PostPosted: Wed Aug 16, 2006 7:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

madameshawshank wrote:
gisele...you, 'n my brother, 'n my granddaughter Smile

The Day of the Observer

idealistic ironic loyal/opinionated unambitious aloof


Thankyou Madame, apologies for the latenss of my reply Very Happy

The Day of the Observer, that sounds like me! Sy seems to think the descriptions are right as well Very Happy
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gisele



Joined: 28 Mar 2006
Posts: 154
Location: North of Auckland, New Zealand

PostPosted: Wed Aug 16, 2006 8:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

madameshawshank wrote:
http://www.smh.com.au/news/world/churches-in-push-to-hide-ancestors/2006/08/13/1155407675124.html

Confused


I find this sort of thing awful...I sincerely hope they don't take the exhibits away. Shocked Crying or Very sad
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