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What is fois gras?
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simona



Joined: 11 Mar 2005
Posts: 696
Location: israel

PostPosted: Thu Oct 05, 2006 3:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

queenla wrote:
So, go forth, ******, and mistreat your selected foood supply with no consideration for The Process. "


PS(2) ******???!!! How did I miss that?
I hope you'll erase this part of your post immediately, and never, but never again will you dare to write such horrible things.
Shame on you

Simona

[Edited by Clotilde on Oct. 10th to remove reference to a phrase that the moderators considered to be offensive.]
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charlsy



Joined: 08 Aug 2006
Posts: 136
Location: France, Bordeaux

PostPosted: Thu Oct 05, 2006 8:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Woaw ! ****** ? Queenla, you should measure your words... No need to insult people this way, and add threats to the insult... You're from Australia, if I'm not mistaken... How many kangoroos slaughtered to make pet food down under ? You know the saying that goes "before remarking on the mote in your neighbour's eye, check the roof beam in your own" ?
We can disagree on things, even to debating heatedly, but insulting people is not the humanitarian way to conduct a discussion...

[Edited by Clotilde on Oct. 10th to remove reference to a phrase that the moderators considered to be offensive.]
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queenla



Joined: 27 Oct 2005
Posts: 105
Location: Wycheproof, Australia

PostPosted: Thu Oct 05, 2006 10:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Australians eat fioe grais too. The kangaroo analogy is irrelevant. We are not talking about killing animals, we are talking about force-feeding animals till their livers swell enormously. I am a meat eater. I check my sources where the product comes from and try very hard to buy meat and fish that has been treated humanely. I cannot imagine how anyone can in full knowledge support cruel treatment of anyone or anything. I have not made any threats and object to such a claim- as for the rest i will not respond.
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charlsy



Joined: 08 Aug 2006
Posts: 136
Location: France, Bordeaux

PostPosted: Thu Oct 05, 2006 11:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

"but the law will change, my friends, and so can you"... you said it Queenla...
I don't know about how others take it, but it feels kind of "threateny" to me... Anyway, mistreating animals before or when killing them, same difference ! As for kangoroos being irrelevant, it's all a matter of point of view...[/quote]
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KathyD



Joined: 02 Nov 2005
Posts: 41
Location: Couzon, France 03160

PostPosted: Thu Oct 05, 2006 1:07 pm    Post subject: "Little Hitlers" Reply with quote

Queenla......you are entitled to your opinion. But please don't call us "******". We don't like it !!! Not to mention the hyperbole !!

[Edited by Clotilde on Oct. 10th to remove reference to a phrase that the moderators considered to be offensive.]
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David



Joined: 30 Sep 2004
Posts: 1855
Location: Ottawa, Ontario, Canada

PostPosted: Thu Oct 05, 2006 3:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'd love to be a fly on the wall when charlsy and KathyD get together to compare American and French cultures! It would be totally fascinating and give much insight into the functioning and reasoning of 2 amazing societies!
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charlsy



Joined: 08 Aug 2006
Posts: 136
Location: France, Bordeaux

PostPosted: Thu Oct 05, 2006 3:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well David, should you ever come near Bordeaux, tell me ! Same for KathyD, but since you live in France, we might be able to arrange something much more easily !
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David



Joined: 30 Sep 2004
Posts: 1855
Location: Ottawa, Ontario, Canada

PostPosted: Thu Oct 05, 2006 7:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Greatly anticipating the end of all the massive construction/reconstruction going on in Bordeaux! You already have a good city and you are going to have an incredible one should all the plans be pulled off. We were there a few years back and had a lovely time. Is it Rue St. Catherine? the long wonderful shopping street/mall? I loved standing at the top of it near the square and looking down over the throngs of people filling the street---and that smaller side street with all the "boutique" shops---and the incredibly quiet intra-city public transportation! Hey, I'd love to visit again!
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gisele



Joined: 28 Mar 2006
Posts: 154
Location: North of Auckland, New Zealand

PostPosted: Mon Oct 09, 2006 9:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

charlsy - you said what i was trying to say...thank you...I grew up with that as well. I lived on a dairy farm (with deer and goats too) and we had to kill our own animals for meat, it was too expensive (not to mention pointless, to buy meat). Ever since I was young I was taught to respect the animals that we used for eating, and we were involved in killing and butchering the animal from a very young age.

There's many things i grew up with as "normal", which my friends view as abhorrent...mainly because they know nothing of the process of getting food to the table, and most of them grew up in the suburbs.
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Rainey



Joined: 29 Sep 2004
Posts: 2498
Location: Los Angeles, California, USA

PostPosted: Mon Oct 09, 2006 3:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

gisele wrote:
There's many things i grew up with as "normal", which my friends view as abhorrent...mainly because they know nothing of the process of getting food to the table, and most of them grew up in the suburbs.


When I was in college there was a performance artist who did a .... hard to know what to call it ... Well, he brought a sheep's carcass to the school and at this "event" people were invited to "interact" with this carcass. They danced, they painted themselves and then the carcass. It went on all night and ratcheted up frighteningly —very Lord of the Flies. Then they cut the carcass up. Don't remember what they did with the meat at that point because I was in a kind of shock.

The next day he appeared to discuss the "event". He said, and — man!, how I fit this description — we were living in a culture that divorced our "food" from it's live beginnings and, most certainly, from the whole interim period from the time it was killed/butchered (there's one of those words that we tailor for food to obscure exactly what those animals are and what we do to them) to the time when it was put, bloodless, into styrofoam trays and wrapped in slick film to appear in well-lighted cases in our clean grocery stores. We had systematically and completely removed ourselves from the time we were hunter/gatherers and the time when we were animal husbands and become effete in our relationship to the food which we required but which also demanded our acknowledgment.

Now, that was all very dramatic and sobering and maybe more than a little over the top. But it's also true of some of us. I was one, even though I was only a generation away from people who hunted for their meat. And I was well aware that they had hunted for their food. But it was forgotten or tucked away in some attic of my consciousness or just relegated to charming family photos. Actually, it was more real that that for me — I used to hike with my father through snowy woods in the winter as a very tiny girl who could hardly lift her knees above the snow when he scouted deer habitat to draw on in the spring when hunting season opened.

Some of you are fortunate enough to have been grounded in what the reality of the situation is. Some of us have to be reminded or informed. Nevertheless, it's my opinion, that it's all part of our omnivore relationship with the rest of the planet. Necessary but not to be disregarded. And, though we can and should exercise informed personal choices, not something to divide us or occasion for judgment. Just a conversation we can have to extend our knowledge of one another and different ways of life.

Meanwhile, those of us who rely on grocery stores to have those slick packages waiting for us have those of you who live or lived on farms and dealt directly with the animals to thank for our bloodless bounty. [/i]
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simona



Joined: 11 Mar 2005
Posts: 696
Location: israel

PostPosted: Tue Oct 10, 2006 11:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

queenla wrote:
So, go forth, ******, and mistreat your selected foood supply with no consideration for The Process.


Mant thanks to KathyD and Charlsy for you brave comments on the above quoted prose.

[Edited by Clotilde on Oct. 10th to remove reference to a phrase that the moderators considered to be offensive.]
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charlsy



Joined: 08 Aug 2006
Posts: 136
Location: France, Bordeaux

PostPosted: Tue Oct 10, 2006 11:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I guess I'm a city girl, but I had the good luck of growing up in small towns,and also spending lots of time in the country. So I grew up picking up eggs freshly laid, feeding rabbits, getting freshly drawn milk from a nearby farm, picking up fruits from the trees, vegetables from the soil. My father was a hunter, I've gone sometimes with him, and picked up his kills. I saw my mother preparing what he brough back (what he killed, and fished, we ate !), also how a rabbit is killed and butchered. So I know the clean, almost pristine, food I buy comes from living creatures and/or plants.
I guess that gives you a point of view that purely city-bred people, who have very minimal contact with "raw" nature, can't have !
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Jaffolk



Joined: 29 Sep 2006
Posts: 24
Location: Leverkusen, Germany

PostPosted: Tue Oct 10, 2006 2:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

queenla wrote:
it seems that peoples defence- and they seem to feel that they have to defend- of eating fois gras is that since animals cannot talk, thus cannot gag, that stuffing them with too much food is OK; that since they are 'animals' they do not require any humanitarian considerations.


The ability to talk has nothing to do with the ability to gag, or at least not the other way round. A dog cannot talk as well, but actually has the abilitiy to gag, which I guess thousands of dog owners will agree on. What is important here is that it is misleading if you ask yourself or others "Would we like to have a tube shoved down our throat?". The answer of course is "No". We wouldn't. But that's partly because our body works differently and so our feelings (mental and physical) would be different from those of a duck. The real question could be "Does a duck mind?" and since we are not duck and don't know what exactly they think, this question will after all be left unanswered.

Please realize that (although I'm not against foie gras) I'm not trying to defend it, but would rather like to point out where the attacks of "anti-foie-grassers" go wrong, because they confuse our human feelings with that of an animal.

There's a subtle difference between human and humanitarian. When I say that animals shouldn't be treated like they were human I do not mean that they should suffer and be tortured. The fact is that in everyday life animals are hardly ever treated like they were human. A dog sleeps on a blanket on a floor and is on a leash when we take him outside. Would you do that to a child. I'm thinking no. And this is a good thing, generally, because animals do not need (and I imagine would not want) to be treated like humans. That's the main difference. And this has nothing to do with treating them humanitarian. That's a whole different meaning and basically one we don't need to argue about.

queenla wrote:
Then you must enjoy your battery hens eggs and fried mars bars.


Which is basically what I said, as far as I remember. From what I read and chose to believe on the internet animals on foie gras farms are often better off than millions of hens in batteries and cattle in small cages and barns. That doesn't necessarily make foie gras right, but it shows how very hypocritical it is for a city to ban foie gras and not ban all other items involving cruelty towards animals. It's ridiculous. If a city or state acts like this, animal right defenders shouldn't applaud, they should go crazy at the madness of this.
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David



Joined: 30 Sep 2004
Posts: 1855
Location: Ottawa, Ontario, Canada

PostPosted: Tue Oct 10, 2006 4:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wow Jaffolk---well said!

Rainey---that performance art bit sounds quite courageous!
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queenla



Joined: 27 Oct 2005
Posts: 105
Location: Wycheproof, Australia

PostPosted: Wed Oct 11, 2006 1:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

That's fine; remove a word if you find it offensive. I hope the same outrage would apply to little Suddam, or little pol pot.
Back to the point:
The F.G argument is not about city people not knowing that beef is cow. It is not about killing animals to eat them- like a sheep farm. If animals can eat and walk around and have enough water and shelter; in other words are treated well- Not treated like humans, not read stories to bed at night and sent to university, just treated well. And if they can can be killed humaely then I have no problem with eating and enjoying them.

"Foie gras, French for "fatty liver," is made from the grotesquely enlarged livers of male ducks and geese. The birds are kept in tiny wire cages or packed into sheds. Pipes are repeatedly shoved down the birds' throats, and up to 4 pounds of grain and fat are pumped into their stomachs two or three times every day. The pipes puncture many birds' throats, sometimes causing the animals to bleed to death. This...procedure causes the birds' livers to become diseased and swell to up to 10 times their normal size. Many birds become too sick to stand up. The birds who survive the force-feeding are killed, and their livers are sold for foie gras."

The above paragraph is what I have a problem with and I do not understand how anyone could not feel the same once they know how FG is 'prepared'.
Of course everyone is entitled to their opinion- including me.
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