swan, take courage------if you don't go-------they win. We flew to Paris one week to the day after 9/11, we thought of cancelling but in the end we decided to go, and are glad we did. _________________ Vivant Linguae Mortuae!!
Joined: 29 Sep 2004 Posts: 2498 Location: Los Angeles, California, USA
Posted: Thu Jul 07, 2005 8:14 pm Post subject:
Anyone found a site for sending condolences yet? Such an inadequate thing to do. Still, it seems like expressing our solidarity and sense of loss is the only thing many of us can do in the face of such enormity...
I'm also feeling grateful today that some of us have found ways to make borders and boundaries secondary to what unites us. I send my profound gratitude to each of you amidst such sadness. _________________ God writes a lot of comedy... the trouble is, he's stuck with so many bad actors who don't know how to play funny. -- Garrison Keillor
Terror is terror is terror. My heart is with the English people.
There is not "good terror vs bad terror"", "understandable reasons for terror vs. non understandable" , "good terrorists vs. bad terrorists"
"right causes vs. bad causes". Just a reminder to all of us that the "good reasons" for terror in Istanbul/ Madrid/ London was the the Iraq war, somehow forgetting that the 9/11 was before. And there were many who managed to "understand" the reasons of Ben Laden and
"inevitable act of despair on 9/11". Terrorists will always find a reason for killing. And there will always be "good and righteous" souls , usually in the western countries, who will find somebody ,somewhere, guilty of "bad behaviour" against somebody and try to justify and accept terror as a "punishment" for some imaginary or non imaginary sins (" it's not OK, but we understand them, poor hungry/ conquered/ underpriviledged/ex-repressed etc. people- they had no choice but to kill 1/3000/200/60/100 ordinary people to voice their " justified grievances").
Unfortunately, I believe I am close enough to this subject to know what I'm an talking about. It is a war of cultures, nobody should kid himself. And apppeasement doesn't work with fanatics, our tradition of soul searching is their strenght, fanatics know how to play with it.
I believe in the strenght of the English people to overcome this tragedy. This is the country of Churchill, who was the most promint anti-appeaser against Hitler, and eventually, this attitude will win, Churchill's beliefs won: evil wins sometimes, but eventually is defeated.
Bravo Swan of not being afraid to travel to London. My husband is too, next week. That is our humble effort to war against pure evil!
No more war, no more bloodshed, no more terrorism!
Joined: 15 Dec 2004 Posts: 583 Location: Anniston Alabama USA
Posted: Fri Jul 08, 2005 2:30 pm Post subject:
Since I'm a U.S. citizen and get most of my news from U.S. sources, I may have a pro-America bias. Since this forum is international, I will ask others about their opinion of the U.S. and our war on terror.
I always considered terrorist acts as the worst form of warfare since they are usually directed at innocent people. But, I read yesterday on another board feelings from some outside the United States that our war against terrorists and the US war in Iraq was equivalent to terrorism since colateral damage also kills civilians. _________________ ' She says, 'I am the glamorous type.' I said, 'So what?'
I agree with Simona, terrorists are bad no matter who they are or where they come from or what the reasons are for their actions. My husband will be in London next week for work, and we will both be there the week after for holidays. I have no qualms about travelling to London.
Terrorism is about creating fear. If you refuse to be frightened or intimidated, you remove the power from the terrorists.
As an exmilitary person, (in the army during the Gulf War, and very involved in Australias efforts there. Also in Fiji during the koo and right in the middle of the action), I saw and heard a lot of things which did not make it into the news. I have to say that sometimes what is done in the name of "peace" can have devastating effects on innocent bystanders. On the other hand (and I am not condoning, merely presenting the theory behind the reason - so please no hate mail or irate posts about what comes next - if you don't like the theory don't keep reading) sometimes actions are taken which are known will affect a few innocents, but will save a greater number of innocents. Sort of sacrificing a few for the benefit of many.
The main thing is to differentiate between some poor soldier who is sent to follow orders by doing "insert task here", and the person who gives the order knowing it will cause suffering to others. Not too many years ago it was punishable by death if you refused to follow orders in the military. Far too many soldiers/sailors/airmen died by firing squad (or were shot by their superior officer) for disobeying a direct order - especially during war time or conflicts. Remember that the person committing the acts has to live with their actions for the rest of their life. This can sometimes be a worse punishment than anything a court of law can think up.
What has happened in London is dreadful, but the more publicity that it generates, the greater a profile the terrorists have. The best thing to do is to not buy into the propaganda and refuse the newspapers and tv updates in your house. When you were a child you were probably told "ignore it/them and it will go away" when someone or something bugged you. It is good advice. Think about the people who are suffering, send them good thoughts for mental and physical recovery, and support your local charities who swing into action for these type of situations. That is the best way to beat the actions of terrorists.
Will step down from the podium now and go and make my husband some dinner.... Pork chops marinated in lemon juice and bush spices then fried in a tiny smear of olive oil. Served with yummy fresh veges that I think I will stir fry in a little lemon juice and pepper. Just the thing for a friday night... quick, easy and tasty. _________________ If you cannot feel your arteries hardening, eat more cheese. If you can, drink more red wine. Diet is just "die" with a "t" on the end. Exercise is walking into the kitchen.
My daughter and I will be in London in three weeks. We wouldn't think of changing our plans and giving in to terrorists. Two years ago, we went to Kenya and Tanzania even though British Air had suspended its flights to Nairobi because of terrorist threats.
I'm 100% for fighting terrorists. But in the eyes of the world, the U.S. lied to its people to justify a war in Iraq that had nothing to do with the terrorist threat, and is still inventing excuses to keep fighting a war that will be recognized a generation from now as having accomplished the opposite of defeating terrorism. "We're fighting them there so we don't have to fight them here", were words that were ridiculous when spoken and dramatically proved false yesterday. _________________ The goal is to fit it all in.
Since I am an Israeli citizen,I get my information from all possible sources ( NYtimes, Le monde, all on the internet) , and of course I am pro- American biased too. Calling American war on terrorism ( in Irak or elsewhere) equivalent to acts of terrorism is as if calling the war of the allied forces against the German army ( WW2) ,acts of terrorism, because german ( innocent??) civilians were also killed. Very "post-modern" attitude!!!
What's wrong with this new generation? Bush and Saadam Hussein are both terrorists? Hitler and Eisenhower are both terrorists? Of course nobody's perfect, and mistakes - MISTAKES, not gazing of curds among other atrocities- are done, so does this make the war against terrorism less valable? All this "new age" understanding of terrorism, this pseudo-psychological analysis of the "problems" and "frustrations" of the people the terrorists presumably represent ( without really asking their permission) is .. you know what. I'm a liberal-left wing person politically, so I wouldn't vote republican or right wing anywhere, but at least, Bush is not troubled by self righteous soul searching: some things are absolute evil, and they should be fought, that's the essence of democracy: you fight for your freedom, you don't identify with the terrorists. And a little studies of the widely publicized credo of the Islamic fanatic minority ( because terrorists are always a minority) will do no harm to those " good souls' who compare americans to Bin-Laden.
I am really furious when i read about these "good souls" who understand terrorist. The terrorist are not stupid, they use these people, and they mock us, and rightfully so: they know that those who will be ready to fight and die for their beliefs will win. They are ready to kill and ready to die. For the moment , they are the winners. I hope that this situation will change, otherwise our grand-children's world will be a very ugly one.
I just read you post Debbie, and I completely agree with you. And Yes, it's a very emotional topic.
And now I'll go and cool down, and like you, prepare my husband - we are solo today- the Friday night ( Sabbat) evening meal - nothing fancy, just a good salad with cheese brought from Paris and watermelon.
[quote="Chicago Bear"]. But in the eyes of the world, the U.S. lied to its people to justify a war in Iraq that had nothing to do with the terrorist threat, and is still inventing excuses to keep fighting a war that will be recognized a generation from now as having accomplished the opposite of defeating terrorism. "We're fighting them there so we don't have to fight them here", were words that were ridiculous when spoken and dramatically proved false yesterday.[/quote]
Dear Chicago Bear, nobody has any idea what will happen in a generation from now, and if indeed, in the long term ( history takes its time), the war on Irak will accomplish the opposite of defeating terrorism. I respect your opinion, but I happen to think just the opposite: only very naive people believe that terrorism will dissapear just like that. Political processes take a very long time,( it took 30 years to bring down the berlin wall, ten years after the first strikes in.. Poland) and though I'm not so naive as to believe that only terrorism was on Bush's mind, I still think that it takes guts to declare a war against somebody like Saddam Hussein. Nobody in his right mind really believed that after the Iraki war terrorism will dissappear. But I also believe, that those who opposed the war in Irak, invoking many false and hypocritical motives, are partly responsible for the continuation of terrorism on their territory. Some of the countries believe that if they will "behave nicely" and join the very fashionable anti-american wave they will be spared. That's really ridiculous. I remember the french reaction after the kidnapping of the two journalists , and the 'demand" to change the french veil law: the french were really offended : what, after being so nice and opposing the americans, why are they punished? Because the terrorists are terrorists, and trying to please and appease them is useless. And shameful.
Maybe its fashionable to blame America for being agressive ( poor Saddam , poor Talibans), but I am sure most of these "peacenick" are very happy somebody else is doing the dirty job. And it's not for the first time in recent history. Yes, definitely,I'm pro-american
No more war , more support for the anti-terrorist fight
It's sad that they don't list the hotels in question. If any of them have American affiliates I'd like to know which ones I should be writing to to say that I'll be avoiding patronizing them in the future.
There were also stories of tearooms and pubs putting out signs that they welcomed the shaken and those in need of company. They offered their wares gratis in a sense of community. Wish those names were available too. _________________ God writes a lot of comedy... the trouble is, he's stuck with so many bad actors who don't know how to play funny. -- Garrison Keillor
Joined: 30 Sep 2004 Posts: 1654 Location: Penrith (where jacarandas remind me of change), New South Wales, Australia
Posted: Sun Jul 10, 2005 10:27 pm Post subject: the place on earth...
The Place on the Earth
the concrete home of our souls
each cocoon and its place on Earth
the why of how we are
the why of who we are
in nanosecond time
each thread connected...always
even when seemingly broken
a decision today
from the soul of one cocoon
...a careful operation
around the globe
not an inch to miss out
not an inch
bathed in light shall be our home
bathed in light
bathed in light
hugs pals hugs _________________ "I've never accepted the external appearance of things as the whole truth. The world is much more elaborate than the nerves of our eye can tell us." - James Gleeson
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