Joined: 29 Sep 2004 Posts: 2498 Location: Los Angeles, California, USA
Posted: Wed Feb 08, 2006 2:48 am Post subject:
Nestle has had quite a shameful past that goes back to the time when African women who were hardput to buy formula were nonetheless told to abandon the milk that they were producing to feed their babies on Nestle's "superior" merchandise. The impoverished women solved that problem by watering down the formula without realizing that that's why their babies were dying of starvation or suffering significant brain damage from malnutrition. Meanwhile, of course, their own milk dried up from lack of use. It was tragic and unconscionable.
But the whole issue of multi-national firms that have no loyalties and no principles is troublesome. As is the disgusting and juvenile "contest" simona referenced. Nevertheless, such an example highlights a cruel hypocrisy that discredits not the subject of the caricatures but the sponsors and "artists". The remedy for free speech, I believe, being more and more rational speech. _________________ God writes a lot of comedy... the trouble is, he's stuck with so many bad actors who don't know how to play funny. -- Garrison Keillor
Joined: 27 Oct 2005 Posts: 105 Location: Wycheproof, Australia
Posted: Wed Feb 08, 2006 6:24 am Post subject:
brave forum topic, well done.
it is tragic ( the reaction from the cartoon). where does it stop?
What is rational thought? what you call rational maybe irrational to me.
who decides and who listens?
is there not irony in the their reaction being as derisive as their complaint or is it written in the koran- eye for an eye?
Hate to bring him up but Howard ( Australian PM) has got what i think is an effective approach to integrating east and west. He is grouping the muslims elders and religious leaders and firstly listening to them and secondly seemingly holding them responsible for the actions of the youth. As usual it is the old men who send the young men to die, look at WWI, WWII, and so on.
all we can do is try. and maybe seek some muslim friends ( or visa versa). United we can stand. _________________ truth, like gold, is not the less so for being newly brought out of the mine.
Joined: 27 Oct 2005 Posts: 105 Location: Wycheproof, Australia
Posted: Wed Feb 08, 2006 6:26 am Post subject:
sorry, forgot initial comment:
These giant corporations need shareholder/public buying power/political pressure to adopt the triple bottom line. _________________ truth, like gold, is not the less so for being newly brought out of the mine.
Joined: 18 Oct 2004 Posts: 1654 Location: Within view of Elliot Bay, The Olympics and every ship in the Sound
Posted: Wed Feb 08, 2006 4:52 pm Post subject:
While I think many things are horrifying, discusting and tragic I can add nothing more to this thread, but the hope for universal understanding.
Well one more thing, be careful which companies you support. I know of a certain citrus grower that supported Apartheid, and clothing manufacturer that has yet to deny horrifying treatment of cat's and dog's. _________________ "It's watery....and yet there's a smack of ham."
JenJen, I know that you said that was a typo, but it perfectly captures my working philosophy. I can think, or I can eat. There's a time and a place for thinking. Rainey has brought up an issue that requires thoughtful discussion. Food requires separate concentration, in an atmosphere that supports its enjoyment, that does not distract from the business at hand. Scientific studies have proved that the human body does not adequately process nutrients in a stressful or overly excited environment. For example, when I was single--many years ago--it was impossible to enjoy a meal with a beautiful woman because my body was giving me one message and one goal. Having long since been liberated from those stresses, the enjoyment of food has become a welcome replacement. It's odd that the "food or thought" typo should stimulate thinking about the best atmosphere for enjoyment of food, but it did. I will no longer feel superficial if I don't enjoy anger or controversy at the dinner table. _________________ The goal is to fit it all in.
I find this kind of political oportunism sickening. Some radical Islamists (as opposed ot Muslims) have found an opening to attack the west and are playing it for all it is worth. Those "cartoons", which I have not seen, were originally printed in a small provincial Danish newspaper LAST SEPTEMBER! At the time they created nary a ripple other than a single death threat to the publisher (or maybe the cartoonist, I can't remember) which resulted in the arrest of a man characterized by the police as mentally ill. Publishing the cartoons was an error in judgement exceeded only by the subsequent decision by newspapers in other countries to republish these same cartoons at a later date. This of course managed to catch the eye of radical islamists and certain Imams started speaking out. Word travels to the heart of Islam and the big boys see their chance. In Egypt a further 30 cartoons were issued claiming to be from the same source when in fact they were much nastier fabrications than the original dozen. One of these has Mohammed done in the image of a pig! Talk about a double outrage! Now the riots have begun---and have you noticed that these "spontaneous" riots often have young men on bicycles with bullhorns egging them on?? It all just seems so designed to further the cleft between Islam and the rest that I just shake my head in disgust at both sides. Sad, but that is what I feel. One side stupidly (and I'm sorry to have to characterise it as "sides") gave a very good opening for the other side to capitalize on, neither side is right in this instance, both look like fools---the violent side perhaps more foolish and exhibiting a herd mentality but those who chose to publish, then republish the cartoons are far from blameless. And of course who will end up the scapegoat??? You can be sure it will somehow be made into yet another "jewish conspiracy"!! _________________ Vivant Linguae Mortuae!!
Dear David, you're late! Several days ago, the the iranians have alreay issued the "fact" that a "Zionist conspiration" was behind these cartoons. Now everybody can go home and relax, the guilty factor has been found, and everything can return back to normal. I don't feel as a "scapegoat". I'm used, -we are used -, to be accused of everything bad which happens in the world. And we are used also to the hummms... WOW! The omnipotent jews!! I should feel proud of belonging to a such a fearful people, but I am just bored to death; is there nothing new under the 2006 sun? The only thing which enlightens my spirit now is the unpatient wait to see which cartoon will get the first prize in the "holocaust cartoon competition " launched by iranian newspapers.
That will be great fun!! Ha, Ha.
And maybe you should see the cartoons. Cartoons!!!
When our grand-grand kids- those who will survive the iranian atomic bomb- will learn about the reasons of the WW3, the teacher will show them.... Cartoons! Well, I'm happy I won't be around anymore.
I saw this in the NYTimes today. Lest Christians feel tempted to puff up their chests about THEIR tolerance of blasphemy:
Sidney Sheinberg, the former president of MCA-Universal, which released "The Last Temptation of Christ," the 1988 film by Martin Scorsese, was skeptical that a Web site would satisfy those who found "The Da Vinci Code" insulting to their religion.
"That suggests that people who have an opinion are going to put the opinion where you tell them to," he said.
Mr. Sheinberg spoke from bruising experience. "The Last Temptation," which depicted Jesus, while on the cross, doubting his faith and fantasizing about a more prosaic life, ignited a firestorm of protest against the studio, and Mr. Sheinberg received death threats, hate mail and even a pig's head mailed to his home at the time. _________________ The goal is to fit it all in.
Dear David, it's more of a "bitter corner of the mouth smile". I'm sorry I'm not surprised , not by the ampleur of the riots,nor by the inevitable "zionist conspiration" theory winded by the iranians and adopted by the masses. I not surprised : either by those who think that the west is to blame of not being "sensible" enough. As opposed of course, to the other side's sensibility towards western religion beliefs/civilazion principles!!!(ha, ha ). I think this kind of self inflicted guilt feelings is the fuel the inciters of the riots wait for. iT's the : "good terrorists" vs. "bad terrorist" eternal discussion. And I'm in a delicate position concerning these subjects, so I will restrict myself to a little bit of black humor.
It's an explosive topic, so let it be... In a month of two, it will calm down, until the next "sin" of the west against Islam will ignite the world again
Chicago Bear: I dimly remeber "The temptation" scandal. If I remember well, there was protest, even ugly protest, and the pig's head was sent to Sheinberg because he is jewish and jews don't eat pork. I doubt Sheinberg took it as an offence to his religion though. A pig's head does not taint the valability of a religion, and this kind of primitive action ( and/or reaction) is rather pointing towards the offender's (sender) principles and values. And even if there was much anger, I don't remember anybody died, or any buildings or Embassies burned down, or any threat to world peace. PROPORTION is not an ugly word. No cultural war was declared on other religions or civilizations.
Joined: 30 Sep 2004 Posts: 1654 Location: Penrith (where jacarandas remind me of change), New South Wales, Australia
Posted: Fri Feb 10, 2006 2:53 pm Post subject:
oh my darlings..
big deep breath in the midst of these days...
one or two thoughts...
what happens if a Muslim dreams ,during sleep, of drawing a picture of the prophet?
if the drawings hadn't been satirical would there still be the outrage?
I reckon we all come as teacher AND student ~ that life gives us lessons..and the lessons come to us via people and their actions...as we each, with our actions, provide lessons for others...
this ~ cartoons printed reprinted not printed and on and on...fires...anger such raging anger in those faces....devoid of peace those faces...
have you heard of the cartoon printed on the cover of Charlie-Hebdo..a French satirical magazine...It has an illustration of the Prophet Mohammed holding his head in his hands and saying, "It's hard to be loved by fools."
that which is held to be sacred...either by a group...or an individual...there is the possiblity and probability that at some stage the thing held sacred will not be held sacred by all...there's the challenge of life...the balance...the gift one can give oneself...the deep peace which is unshakable...rarely given to self...ego ego ego gets in the way sooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo often..does it not
tonight...well early this morn actually...12.54am...as the head hits the pillow...I'll imagine our home ~ this place we call earth...bathed in loving light...to reach the darkest places of our anger...this collective anger that seems to be about...here there and everywhere...
loving light I wish for our home, Earth...may peace be with us...I begin to weep as I type...still I hope...in the face of it all....I WILL hope for peace for our home.... _________________ "I've never accepted the external appearance of things as the whole truth. The world is much more elaborate than the nerves of our eye can tell us." - James Gleeson
Joined: 29 Sep 2004 Posts: 2498 Location: Los Angeles, California, USA
Posted: Fri Feb 10, 2006 7:33 pm Post subject:
"It's hard to be loved by fools."
An issue worth considering as I think this thing is fueled as much by sensitivity to the very aptness of the cartoons as by deliberate machinations by malevolent agents of anarchy. Those sincere believers who are offended by the cartoons might ask themselves if the images insult the prophet as much as the hysterical, hypocritical and opportunistic behavior of "believers" bring discredit. And how the sentiments behind the cartoons are rooted in cruel realities that the world has seen played out by irrational fundamentalists taking advantage of horrendous desperation. This tarnishes their prophet far more than mere cartoons which reflect rather than create realities.
There is always opportunity in adversity and this is a time for everyone everywhere to take a deep breath and ask if this is what we want and how we can make the changes that are desperately needed. If we're people of peace and civilization it's time to offer those values as an alternative.
It seems like too little but it worked for Ghandi and it brought what was then a mighty empire to a halt. In the end, it's all we have that can remedy injustice and instability. During the riots in LA that followed the Rodney King trial there was a mantra that was heard over and over in LA. "No justice, no peace" It seemed then less a threat than a simple truth. I think it still is and I hope we can recognize it and accept it before a horrible war forces us to capitulate from utter exhaustion and tragedy. _________________ God writes a lot of comedy... the trouble is, he's stuck with so many bad actors who don't know how to play funny. -- Garrison Keillor
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